Is Lust okay for "Normal" Men? My Comment to Some Comments on an Article in Rowboat and Marbles

I commented on rowboat and marbles to this post and its comments:  http://rowboatandmarbles.org/fifty-shades-of-grey-two-shades-of-lust.html

I know it might be kind of cheesy to post my comment to a post, but it was so long and I thought the information might be beneficial to some. So here it is. 

I’m addicted to Lust, I’m also addicted to food. Like Andrew has said before, I don’t know how “normal” men perceive lust. I don’t know if it can ever be a healthy thing, just like eating a supersized triple cheese burger and an ice cream Sunday are ever healthy. Sure the burger isn’t killing you by itself, but is it healthy? I’ve heard about people that “role play”, that watch “sexy movies”, and wear lingerie to seduce or entice their spouse.  I could be wrong, like I said, I’m not a “normal” guy. But WHY do these people initiate these types of behavior? WHY is wearing lingerie a turn on for certain men? If they are normal and don’t have any form of lust addiction and it isn’t a problem then why do it? Is it for “fun”? If it’s for fun, why is it necessary? If their completely satisfied with their relationship without these activities, then what is the point in doing them?
     To me, and I’m an addict so I don’t know NMB (“Normal” Man Behavior). If these activities give someone something “extra” to their relationship. A way of “bonding” that wasn’t present before, it stands to reason that there is something lacking and is trying to be made up for? That’s just my thoughts on it.
    And about shame, I don’t know if someone can really shame someone else if they aren’t meaning to. I know there are people that like to shame others. In my experience most addicts had parents that were good at this. But are there people that just feel shame when someone says something that triggers something the person already feels shameful about?
    Like I went to the doctor the other day saw how much a weighed, most I’ve ever weighed in my life, and I felt totally ashamed. I went through a couple days of feeling shameful and not realizing why until I remembered how I felt at the doctor’s. They didn’t do anything to shame me. I was already there.
    I know that’s kind of getting off the subject so I’ll go back to lust. I guess I don’t see the point in going on a website that is about lust addiction and then getting on someone for assuming that everyone has an addiction to lust. I would guess that most “normal” men, (and I use these quotations not as a pun or putdown or with any sarcasm. I now that being “normal” isn’t really normal because everyone is different. That’s why I put quotations around the “normal”, I’m just saying “normal” as in, people who don’t have an addiction.) anyways, I would guess that most “normal” men wouldn’t even be looking for this site or reading too far into it because they wouldn’t need to.
    I don’t believe that the Mormon church has more addicts than non-LDS people. I just believe that most of the rest of the world doesn’t see a big deal in masturbation, lust, sex, pornography, and so don’t ever answer surveys about it.
    I don’t know if there’s really a genuine point for what I have to say in this comment, just that my feelings were hurt that someone would suggest a little bit of lust is okay and saying their an addict also. I just don’t get it I guess. I think drinking any amount of alcohol is unhealthy. Sure, they may not go drop dead drunk, but going over the healthy prospects of drinking a little bit of alcohol, or that just a little bit doesn’t hurt, makes no difference if God decreed us not to drink it. God didn’t say, “If thou lusteth in thy heart it is the same….unless it’s with your wife, then a little bit is okay.” I think he asks us to stay away from these things because they have the ability to impair judgment. Because they have the ability to take away our control. They take away our ability to act, and not be acted upon. It’s the same with everything. When I am hungry and stop at a Carls Jr. or Burger King, that whopper meal supersized with a caffeinated beverage has power over me. I am acted upon by the thought of deliciousness. And that’s because I feel like the larger and juicier the meal, the further away from stress I’ll be.
    God wants us to be agents unto ourselves. That means that anything that exerts power over us makes us unfit for the kingdom of God. Whether it’s an addiction or not. Does overeating keep me from obeying the commandments? No. Does acting on lust keep me from obeying the commandments? Absolutely.
    Lust creates a false reality in me. If my wife wore lingerie, I would be looking at the fantasy of my wife, which isn’t my wife. If we role played it would be the same. If we watched sexy movies it would be the same. And for me to think that a little bit of lust is okay if I’m “normal” that just opens the doorway for me to lie to myself later on when I have long term sobriety. I’ll think, “well normal men can lust just a little bit. I’ve been sober for a long time, so I’m sure I can lust just a little bit.” And since so many men are addicted to lust, that 5% that isn’t probably doesn’t mind that I think as if everyone is on the path to becoming addicted to lust, or working on their lust addiction.

My comment

I read one of Andrew's newest blogs on http://rowboatandmarbles.org/blog   and I was reading this post: http://rowboatandmarbles.org/getting-real-about-masturbation.html

especially the comments at the bottom. I think all addicts should leave a comment for Andrew. Here's mine. 

I am LDS and I don’t live in Utah. I was raised Mormon but inactive. I’m addicted to lust/porn/masturbation/sex. I went through varying degrees of activity in the church. Especially once I was caught in my lies about pornography consumption and my addiction came to light. I started going to church all the time. And  I began to feel guilty about “church stuff”. For instance, I would forget to pray at night, and then while lying in bed I’d realize I forgot to pray and feel guilty that I forgot to pray and told myself that if I didn’t pray I wasn’t doing the right thing and then most likely my day would suck tomorrow. So I’d pray, but I’d pray in bed, and then I’d feel guilty that I was praying in bed and not on my knees. Did that mean I didn’t really care? Was I offending God? Was he disappointed that I wasn’t showing him the proper sign of respect? That must mean that tomorrow my day would most likely suck and it would be my fault. So I got out of bed and got on my knees and prayed. And then, afterwards, I’d feel “guilty” I guess I should change all the times I’ve said “guilty” in this post to shameful.  I’d feel shameful because I hadn’t addressed God in “thee” and “thou”. Wasn’t I supposed to do that? Dang. That must mean that my prayer wasn’t that important and that God wasn’t going to help me, and it was all my fault. These shame cycles happened most when I went to church and read scriptures and all that on a regular basis.
     Recently, like just last year, I realized something profound. God didn’t want me to feel shameful about doing “churchy” stuff. In fact, in my opinion, God would rather me NOT do those things, then to do them because I didn’t want to feel shame for doing them. So I stopped. I stopped doing a lot of “churchy” things and kept working on sobriety and step work and addiction material. I even stopped going to church.
      Guess what, I started to feel like going to church. I started to feel like reading my scriptures. I started to feel like praying. Do I do these things 100% all the time? No, but I can say that for myself, I’ve come so much closer to God.
      Why am I talking about all of this? Because I agree with Andrew. Masturbation is bad for me. That’s a fact that I live by. I don’t have an “addiction” because the church told me I did. In fact most church members and even some higher officials would say that I DON’T have an addiction. I haven’t gone to massage parlors, I haven’t gone to strip clubs, I haven’t even bought pornographic material. I’ve viewed LOTS of it and acted out to LOTS of it. But not as much as I’ve masturbated to my IMAGINATION.
    This is what it does to me. Viewing sexual things on a computer screen, tv, book, or primarily my brain, with or without actually masturbating, (its all still masturbating to me, because like Andrew said, if I’m stimulating a sex organ, with anyone other than my wife, I’m breaking the law of Chastity.) It makes me desire that type of fantasy more than reality. I WANT it to be my reality. And then I begin to live my life as if that FANTASY should be REALITY. And the impossible truth is that it will never be that way because fantasy isn’t reality.
    I begin to feel depressed, rejected, not of worth or importance, and carry HUGE resentments because reality isn’t what I think it should be, which is my reality. This causes me to assume that my wife must not love me because she doesn’t act how I think she should. My kids don’t act how I think they should; my boss doesn’t act how I think he should. And I in turn become passive aggressive and disconnect from those around me. This also makes me WANT to seek that type of life. I daydream more often; I seek out opportunities to engage with women. (nothing sexual, just eye contact, smiles, friendly conversations, etc)
    This will kill me. I might end up contracting a disease, I might go to the wrong part of town and get killed, I might get so distraught and depressed that I’ll kill myself. NOT BECAUSE OF THE MASTURBATION, but because of the perceived injustice of my reality. But most likely, I will live out the rest of my days alone in an apartment or small house with no friends or family, but a house FULL of pornography. This is going to happen. This isn’t a friendly “healthy” past time.
     In fact, I don’t think anyone that is satisfied and content and truly happy with their life goes home and says, “YOU KNO WHAT? I think I’m going to look at porn and jack off because it will make my day THAT MUCH MORE SPECIAL!” That seems like an impossibility to me. Maybe that’s because I can’t perceive what a normal person thinks.
      I’m addicted. And it’s like a cancer. If I don’t take my “pills” and go in for “treatments” and have “check-ups” with my “doctor”, it will not stay in remission, it will kill me. People that have leprosy have an exercise that they have to do ALL the time. It’s called VSE; meaning Visual Surveillance of Extremities. They do this because they lose feeling in their limbs and sometimes don’t realize that they’ve hurt themselves until the wound has festered and rotted. It is the most important thing to maintaining good health for a leprosy patient. You have to live it, think it, do it, all the time. I think of maintaining sobriety as the same thing. It’s got to be kept in the forefront of my mind, why? Because like the leprosy patient whose nerve endings are dead so he can’t feel pain, I’ve got to look at the actions I take, the thoughts I think, and where my eyes go. ALL THE TIME. And not even that, I’ve got to rely on someone else whose been where I’m at and whose a lot longer in sobriety than me to be able to see the things I am doing/not doing because I’m so blinded by my false reality, my desire for fantasy.
     Why? Because I’m addicted.  I could care less what someone says about masturbation being healthy and that “studies show…” because its (the masturbation/acting on lust) is killing me. I’ve witnessed it. Like the leper that sees their body parts and skin falling off, this is happening to me.
   This website is for those suffering from an addiction to lust or who want to know about it from the people that  are addicted. And its been a great help to me. 

When Do I Relapse? Part 2

I have been thinking about the question, when do I start my sobriety date over? If not being vulnerable and sharing my feelings is considered to be a relapse, do I need to start my sobriety date over? If I've looked at anything with the intent to seek stimulus, i.e. porn, bikinis, brazillian butt lift infomercials, etc. ANYTHING WITH THE INTENT TO SEEK STIMULUS. I was going to say self stimulus, but I started looking stuff up before on how to stimulate my wife, which is also wrong. ANY FORM OF SEEKING STIMULUS other than sex with wife (and even then it shouldn't be for self-stimulus sake) yeah, you relapsed, I relapsed and need to change my sobriety date. Even if I wasn't "intentionally" looking for it, but found it and looked at it for awhile and then exited. It's still a relapse.
     But as far as when do I need to set my sobriety date if I haven't been vulnerable and open and emotional with my wife, Honestly I this is an interesting question. I would like to say, "do what you think is right," but in complete honesty, us addicts think anything that helps us hide and isolate is right. haha.
     So I think what needs to happen in this case, is to come clean to your spouse. Tell her how you've been feeling if you haven't talked to her in a long time. Let her know how close you've come to acting out. It may not be that far. Maybe fantasy ideas just pop into your head more often than usual because you aren't feeling in sync with reality. These fantasy suggestions are always going to come if we don't share our feelings. And these fantasy suggestions will turn into fantasy thoughts, and these fantasy thoughts are going to warp reality, and our warped reality is going to build our resentments, and our resentments are going to help us isolate, and our isolation will help us look for visual stimulus to go along with our fantasy stimulus, and then we will physically act out.
    Guys always talk about how you should discuss with your sponsor before you tell your wife whatever you have to tell her. I think this is BS. Tell your wife what she wants to know, because I know my wife is going to find out either way, but isn't it better to tell her how I'm feeling as apposed to already screwing up completely and then telling her? Heck yeah.
     So what I think is the best bet, since I'm the addict and my perception of reality is completely FUBAR, I need to tell my wife how I've been feeling for the past however long I haven't been vulnerable and open with her, and tell her the affects of how this emotional isolation has affected me. Has it made me resentful, has it made these fantasy suggestions more prevalent in my mind, and then let her know that since I'm afraid to trust my own judgement, would she be able to help me decide if I need to start my sobriety date over?
    I can see a lot of guys being scared of this. A lot of us assume that our wives secretly hate us and think we are doing a lot worse that WE think we really are. If I am honest and open with myself, my wife is usually a better judge of my sobriety than I am. Guaranteed. As much as it hurts me to admit that, it's true. I'm sure there MAY be in some cases a wife who is completely off in that respect, and even as I say this I can imagine many of us addicts nodding and saying that OUR wife is the lunatic. Either way, does it really matter?
    Here's what I've been thinking. WHO CARES ABOUT CHANGING A SOBRIETY DATE? I mean, all of us addicts do. We like to hold it as a badge of honor. But really, what's the honor in it? We've already jacked up our family. We've destroyed everything. What's a month of a year of sobriety going to do that 20+ years of destruction hasn't undone?
     Like I've stated previously, its all about a change in behavior. If you talk with your wife, and she thinks you should change your sobriety date, is that a bad thing? Does that mean that you AREN'T a good person or changing or learning? No, it means that a date is changed and the number of days of sobriety you have are changed. Is that important? And if it is important? Ask yourself WHY? Why is holding a sobriety date so important? "Because it shows how much time I have away from acting out in my addiction!" Yeah, but in all honesty, you can go a year without acting out, or two, or three, or five, but if you eventually come back around to your addiction, that "sobriety" that was held in between doesn't really matter. It just means that the addiction cycle was still working within you. Behavior change shows true sobriety which is headed toward recovery.
     And think of it, how awesome is your wife going to feel when first you actually open up and be vulnerable to her, and then along with that, ask for her advice? Yeah she's still upset that you haven't shared yourself with her, yeah she might be mad about whatever actions you took in heading toward your addiction, but when you come to her you are showing her that you made a mistake and that you can't fix it on your own and that you know that you need consequences.
     As I write this I think of all the excuses I want to make for myself, "but I want to be a sponsor! If I set my sobriety date back, I wont be able to do that!" So? The more time in sobriety you have, the better sponsor you will be. And if I'm so desirous to be a sponsor? Why? is that because I want to feel good? Or because I want to help others. And if I want to help others, shouldn't I wait to be sure I'm actually on the road to recovery, so I'm not the blind leading the blind?
     "But you don't understand! My wife really doesn't get where I'm at in sobriety, She hates me!" So? If you don't trust your wife and think she hates you why are you working on your marriage? If she is SO against you, why stay with her? Whereas if you love your wife, and she "doesn't get where I'm at in sobriety" wouldn't asking her for help in deciding your sobriety date help heal that wound?
    And for those of you working the 90 day program, i don't know how any of what I've ever said would fit in for you. I don't believe in the 90 day program so I'm not trying to fit anything into that structured thing.
   Also, tell your sponsor. Discuss it with them too. Maybe get their input and bring that to your wife as well. Maybe that will help her have a better basis for helping you. I'm still learning this all too.
   So I'd say, when it comes down to not sharing your feelings and vulnerability for any amount of time over 24 hours, talk about it with your wife. Let her into your world and let her help. She really does love you and WANTS to help you. And if you aren't married, or aren't in a position to be able to talk with your wife right now, talk to a Sponsor and other men with years of sobriety. Not guys that are in the same place you are. Anyways, I hope the best for all of you!